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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:40 pm 
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im pretty sure scientists and religous (whatever they call themselve) are looking in totaly different angles but are gonna stumble upon the same thing. you know religion and science are just to different paths to the same place.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:23 pm 
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Dirk Diggler wrote:
With all of the ways in which religious leaders and politicians around the world have abused “religion” throughout history, it chips away at the credibility of religious teachings and religious leaders today.

I'm with you... It's hard to believe someone who says "Jesus Christ can change you and make you a better person" when their own life seems unchanged by him...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:56 pm 
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Remember, in the times up until the New Testament (and even after the time in which the New Testament takes place) most of the population of the world was illiterate. I have always looked at the Old Testament as a series of stories, set in a time before science and literacy were prevalent (remember, the Earth was flat before the late 1,400s). When passed along as verbal stories, it probably got some Chinese telephone effect. It also probably consisted of stories that were told in a way that the masses could understand. That's how I have resolved the obvious conflict between Genesis and science.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:10 pm 
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Dewey Wilkerson wrote:
When passed along as verbal stories, it probably got some Chinese telephone effect. It also probably consisted of stories that were told in a way that the masses could understand. That's how I have resolved the obvious conflict between Genesis and science.


Your point about the worldview of people of that era is very appropriate. That kind of thing is important to remember when reading ANY historical document (even relatively recent ones). Our current worldview, that tends to see the scientific/naturalistic as normative & basic, is relevantly recent in terms of world history...

However, from what I remember, cultures that passed on oral traditions tended to do a very good job of passing along those traditions accurately. They depended on them, so they were much less susceptible to the "Chinese telephone effect" than cultures like ours. (We don't have to remember oral information, because we can write it down & look it up later.) Yes, traditions developed and were added to and edited. But generally such developments were purposeful, not accidental.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:39 pm 
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I am sure you are right about the fact that storytelling in days of old was more accurate than what we experience today. A point I wanted to make and didn't was that stories B.C. were most probably "dumbed down" so that they could be understood. A story about evolution over billions of years would not have been understood by the masses. I guess I would equate these stories to what you might find in a children's bible. Watered down to a level that the audience can understand.

I guess I view the Old Testament as a collection of fables with basis in fact.

I appreciate the discussion! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:50 pm 
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Dewey Wilkerson wrote:
A point I wanted to make and didn't was that stories B.C. were most probably "dumbed down" so that they could be understood. A story about evolution over billions of years would not have been understood by the masses. I guess I would equate these stories to what you might find in a children's bible. Watered down to a level that the audience can understand.


You're right that a story of evolution over billions of years would have been nonsensical to them, but not because it would've been too complex... but because it wouldn't have even remotely fit into their worldview. People "B.C" were not morons and didn't need things to be "dumbed down" for them. Are Homer's Illiad & Odyssey "dumbed down"? They are believed to have been passed down orally before finally being written down.

Besides all of this, there's some question as to when the stories of the OT were written down. It was somewhere between several hundred and a couple thousand years "BC." But they were far beyond the level of a "children's bible"... :)

Yes, this is fun discussion! It's about time for one of us to go grab a reference book to bring some facts & figures into the discussion...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:22 pm 
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If you dismiss parts of the Old Testament as not being entirely accurate it seems like you can apply that same thinking to the New Testament. Even biblical scholars who are much more familiar with the bible then you or I can’t agree on what Jesus said and what he didn’t.


Dewey Wilkerson wrote:
I guess I view the Old Testament as a collection of fables with basis in fact.


I'm with you on the fables I'm just not so sure about the basis in fact.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:45 pm 
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Ray Gun wrote:
Even biblical scholars who are much more familiar with the bible then you or I can’t agree on what Jesus said and what he didn’t.


Actually, the general consensus among biblical scholars is pretty strong that the four New Testament gospels are reliable. It's a minority of scholars with a particular methodological approach who call them into serious question.

Of course, I don't have any of my books handy to give you references... :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:31 pm 
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My opinion only, but I don't have much trouble believing that the New Testament is based in fact. Of course, it is fact as experienced by the writer. One thing I cannot subscribe to is the idea that if it's in the Bible, it must be literally true. For example, take Noah and the flood. Could it just have been a flood in a specific area of the world? Remember, in those days the world was flat, and was probably not very "big". In context, it may have seemed like the whole world. Did Noah get two of every animal on earth onto the Ark? Well, I don't think that happened either. Again, in context there might have been two of every large species that was indigenous to the area. I am pretty certain that two of every insect were not caught, checked for gender and brought on the boat.

My biggest problem with a lot of organized religions is that they spend so much time on the small stuff, and not enough time on the big stuff. Love thy neighbor. Strive to be good. Admit your faults. Help one another. Be truthful. Be tolerant. Again, only my humble opinion, but I don't think God worries too much about which version of the Bible you read. I don't think he is all that concerned about which denomination you belong to. I also think you can worship outside of a traditional church setting. I think you worship God when you admire his work. I think you worship God when you help a friend. I think you worship God even more when you help someone you don't know.

Organized religion is great until you get humans involved :?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:16 am 
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For the most part, Dewey, we're on the same wavelength.

Not that you needed that affirmation... :D


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:38 am 
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Yep I think so Rich. But you are wrong about one thing - I need all the affirmation I can get. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:32 am 
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On the subjects of the new and old testament, if you really look at them indepth, there are a mass amount of similarities, but some things are different. For instance, much of the old testament prophesizies about what will happen in the new testament, about things that actually did happen and are still happening today. A lot of the ceremonies and offerings in the old testament point to the one man who is the prime subject of the new testament, and that would be Christ.

I have always had a defining veiw of the new and the old testaments. I feel that one (the old testament) addressed the unforgiven and sinful generations, hence the sacrifices and the violence that took place back then (slaying of live sacrifices, armies destroying nations an other tribes, utterly, etc.).

But I feel that the new testament addresses a forgiven and sinless generation (if you've accepted Christ), thus violence is no longer suffured or tolorated by God among his believers, like it was in the old testament.

People always point out that the scriptures say God doesn't change (and it does say it), so because of this what applies in the old testament still applies in the new testament, is what they say. They point out, "if God doesn't change, how can he say one thing in the old testament and say something different in the new testament?" But I've always told them "yes, I feel he did say one thing in the old testament and said some things different in the new testament". But not because he changed, as he said, "he is aways the same and never changes". He said those "different things" in the new testament because man changed, not Him. Man changed from "sinful and unforgiven" to "sinless and forgiven." The same rules and ordinances "can not" and "should not" apply to both. That's not to say that a sinless man is allowed to lie and steal, but that; if he truly walks in Christ, he wouldn't want to, and if he did slip forgiveness is available, if he continues, forgiveness and possible reprimand. The result is that the sinner is under the law and the forgiven is under grace. The forgiven are those who have accepted Christ, but Christ had not yet died for the sins of man in the old testament, so that forgivness was not available. Not omitting the promise of that forgiveness was given to those who believed that he would come, by observing and believing those things that were said in the old testament about Him. Some of these people included Abraham, Moses, Jacob, etc.

I know it's sort of a black and white view, and sometimes can be the subject of much debate, but that's the way I see it... and do believe it was shown to me that way.

-Thanks for listening

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:45 pm 
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Why doesn't God just appear and do a few miracles and then appear on Larry King? He could clear up of alot of the BS in the name of religion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:33 am 
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Rock Star wrote:
Why doesn't God just appear and do a few miracles and then appear on Larry King? He could clear up of alot of the BS in the name of religion.


I think he tried something like that a couple thousand years ago... No Larry King back then, so he just sent PR folks out to tell everyone about it...

:)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:03 pm 
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I just finished "Letter to a Christian Nation."

Wow!

It was written by an atheist.

Did you know that the Sumerians had a culture going 7000 years ago?

How does that fit with the earth being 6000 years old?

And what's with all those dinosaur bones?

And did you know that 99% of all species of life that has ever been on earth is extinct?

And why do things as small as bacteria and viruses keep evolving every time mankind invents a new antibiotic? Isn't that evolution on a small scale, happening very quickly?


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