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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:12 pm 
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happy jack wrote:
sparks wrote:
Congress managed to amend the constitution to enact Prohibition, so IMO, it would be possible to amend it to ban abortion. It would take a coalition of both Democrats and Republicans to do so.


Yes, that’s my point. So why are you laying the blame on Republicans?



sparks wrote:
However, whether abortion is legal or not, women are still going to have them.


Whether murder, rape, and robbery are legal or not, people are still going to commit those acts. But people are less likely to commit acts for which there are consequences. Hence, prohibitive laws and the subsequent possibility of punishment generally result in a reduction in the behavior they target.

Right, that is why the United States locks up a higher percentage of it's population than any country on Earth, because our harsh laws discourage crime? Do you ever think about any of the things you post?

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:15 pm 
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sparks wrote:
happy jack wrote:
sparks wrote:
Congress managed to amend the constitution to enact Prohibition, so IMO, it would be possible to amend it to ban abortion. It would take a coalition of both Democrats and Republicans to do so.


Yes, that’s my point. So why are you laying the blame on Republicans?



sparks wrote:
However, whether abortion is legal or not, women are still going to have them.


Whether murder, rape, and robbery are legal or not, people are still going to commit those acts. But people are less likely to commit acts for which there are consequences. Hence, prohibitive laws and the subsequent possibility of punishment generally result in a reduction in the behavior they target.

Right, that is why the United States locks up a higher percentage of it's population than any country on Earth, because our harsh laws discourage crime? Do you ever think about any of the things you post?


Are you maintaining that we should eliminate laws and punishment as a means of reducing crime?
I guess that would make sense in a way; if there were no laws against any sort of behavior (except smoking), then anyone could do anything they wanted and, technically, it would not be a crime.
Do you ever think about any of the things you post?

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:44 am 
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sparks wrote:
This greater appreciation for the totality of Catholic teaching is at the very heart of the Obama campaign


I'm thinking that several Catholics haven't received the skraps memo......
Just a guess.......... :shock:

Cardinal Stafford criticizes Obama as ‘aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic’

Cardinal James Stafford / President-elect Barack ObamaWashington DC, Nov 17, 2008 / 02:27 pm (CNA).- Cardinal James Francis Stafford, head of the Apostolic Penitentiary of the Holy See, delivered a lecture on Thursday saying that the future under President-elect Obama will echo Jesus’ agony in Gethsemane. Criticizing Obama as “aggressive, disruptive and apocalyptic,” he went on to speak about a decline in respect for human life and the need for Catholics to return to the values of marriage and human dignity.

Delivered at the Catholic University of America, the cardinal’s lecture was titled “Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II: Being True in Body and Soul,” the student university paper The Tower reports. Hosted by the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family, his words focused upon Paul VI’s encyclical Humanae Vitae, whose fortieth anniversary is marked this year.

Commenting on the results of the recent presidential election, Cardinal Stafford said on Election Day “America suffered a cultural earthquake.” The cardinal argued that President-elect Obama had campaigned on an “extremist anti-life platform” and predicted that the near future would be a time of trial.

“If 1968 was the year of America’s ‘suicide attempt,’ 2008 is the year of America’s exhaustion,” he said, contrasting the year of Humane Vitae’s promulgation with this election year.

“For the next few years, Gethsemane will not be marginal. We will know that garden,” Cardinal Stafford told his audience. Catholics who weep the “hot, angry tears of betrayal” should try to identify with Jesus, who during his agony in the garden was “sick because of love.”

The cardinal attributed America’s decline to the Supreme Court’s decisions such as the 1973 ruling in Roe v. Wade, which imposed permissive abortion laws nationwide.

“Its scrupulous meanness has had catastrophic effects upon the unity and integrity of the American republic,” Cardinal Stafford commented, according to The Tower.

His theological remarks centered upon man’s relationship with God and man’s place in society.

“Man is a sacred element of secular life,” he said, arguing that therefore “man should not be held to a supreme power of state, and a person’s life cannot ultimately be controlled by government.”

Cardinal Stafford also touched on the state of the family, saying that the truest reflection of the relationship between the believer and God is the relationship between husband and wife, and that contraceptive use does not fit within that relationship.

http://catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=14355

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:56 am 
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and yet obama got A LOT of the catholic vote.....

Here is something interesting:

Faith-Based Politics, The Obama Way
BY ANDRE C. WILLIS | TheRoot.com
Evangelicals won't disappear in an Obama administration. They'll just be a different crew.

TYPE SIZE
Nov. 17, 2008--People think of George Bush as being the first evangelical president. But Barack Obama may bring his own evangelical flair to Washington. For all the significant changes Obama is expected to usher in, religion may be one that some people didn't see coming. If the past eight years have been dominated by prominent conservative evangelicals like Pat Robertson and James Dobson, the Obama years may be the era of Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo, social-justice-minded evangelicals in the model of Walter Rauschenbusch and Martin Luther King Jr.
The religious shift Obama has ushered in is significant for black Americans and the country as a whole. For the first time in African-American political history (certainly since Booker T. Washington died in 1915) the most prominent political representative of black America is not a religious figure. Black political engagement, grounded in the Hebrew tradition of the prophets, is no longer the centerpiece of black political activism. That's big!
But for Americans overall, the social shift has been just as dramatic. Obama's presidency will mark the first time in American political history that the voices of progressive evangelicals—those driven more by the greater social good than by personal moralizing—will be privileged inside of the White House. As the transition unfolds, there is much speculation about where the Obamas will attend church. More important than where the president worships, though, is how he uses his faith to lead. And if his actions during the campaign are any indication, Washington should prepare for new voices to emerge on issues of faith and values.
Obama courted the faith vote early and intensely. Town-hall meetings themed around "faith in action" helped Obama win the crucial early states of Iowa and South Carolina in the primaries. In the general election, the campaign expanded its faith outreach into a full-fledged "American Values Forum" initiative, complete with DVDs targeted to religious voters and organized house parties where supporters gave "testimony" for the Democrat. Obama still lost the conservative white evangelical vote by a healthy margin, but he improved on the performance of other Democrats and won the Catholic vote outright (this may be attributable to Joe Biden, a Catholic).
Obama was always more comfortable talking about his faith than John McCain, but in the Democratic primaries, he emphasized more of a "civil religion"—the idea that collective hope could be a political force. Over the course of the campaign, he held closed-door sessions with evangelical leaders (mostly white, but including T.D. Jakes, Kirbyjon Caldwell and Eugene Rivers), shifted the language of his stump speeches and began emphasizing his own experience of being "saved by the blood."
On Aug. 23, for instance, in his nationally televised conversation with powerful mega-church pastor Rick Warren, Obama took on the question, "What does it mean to you to trust in Christ?"
His answer: "Well, as a starting point, it means I believe in—that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and that I am redeemed through him. That is a source of strength and sustenance on a daily basis. Yes, I know that I don't walk alone. And I know that if I can get myself out of the way that, you know, I can maybe carry out in some small way what he intends. And it means that those sins that I have, on a fairly regular basis, hopefully will be washed away."
The expression conveyed as much "born-again" evangelical sensibility as any of the direct salvation references of George W. Bush during his 2000 campaign. But Obama's actions, advisers and outreach suggested a much more progressive bent. Over the past eight years, media and political power brokers have tended to cluster all evangelicals under the same tent. But that's never been so and certainly is not now.
All forms of evangelicalism share core tenets: a belief in the importance of personal conversion through Jesus Christ (salvation); the commitment to biblical activism (authority of the Bible, not reason or experience); and an investment in public morality (public witness). Where they differ is in their emphasis: progressive evangelicals strongly emphasize the suffering of Jesus and his political struggles against the social order, while conservative evangelicals are preoccupied with imposing "biblical" morality.
Where Bush has been a Christian imperialist, Obama will be a Christian pluralist. While his own conversion roots him firmly in the Christian faith, his intellectual skills and international experience allow him to understand that there are many paths to the truth. And his rhetorical abilities allow him to give new meaning to the language of faith to both positively affirm people of different faiths all over the world and properly acknowledge leaders from non-Christian nations. This will be a crucial corrective to the divisive notion of faith propagated in the Bush era and could play an important role in reestablishing America's reputation worldwide.
Domestically, look for an overhauled office of faith-based initiatives. In Denver, the Democratic Party's first "faith caucus" engaged a spirited discussion on the role and relevance of such programs and how they might differ from similar policies offered by George W. Bush. Most likely, the least of these thrusts of progressive evangelicalism will empower the already flourishing network of Christian social programs that emphasize economic equality and burgeoning anti-poverty movements. The warriors in this fight will not only be religious figures. Marian Wright Edelman has been framing poverty as a moral/religious issue for the last 35 years, even though conservative evangelicals would never claim her (or she them).
In general, the challenge for Obama will be to expand the networks he has built during the campaign to reshape the popular dialogue about the role of faith in politics. He will have to liberate the very notion of faith, which has been hijacked during the Bush administration for very narrow political interests. And as the country gets used to a more embracing posture of faith, African Americans will be challenged to shift further away from the prophetic religious tradition that has defined black political engagement for generations. What we've known as the historic black church may morph into a combination of Iyanla Vanzant's deep spirituality, T.D. Jakes powerful preaching, Al Sharpton's focus on justice, Jesse Jackson's rainbow coalition, Alice Walker's womanism and Johnny Ray Youngblood's community activism, all geared toward a racially inclusive, religiously pluralistic, non-hierarchical conception of faith that celebrates human dignity, values economic equality and has a global sensibility.
If it sounds like an enormous leap forward, think of the chasms already crossed this year. Old-time religion may just be ready for something new.
Andre C. Willis is an assistant professor of the philosophy of religion at Yale Divinity School.
Dayo Olopade contributed reporting to this essay.
http://www.theroot.com/id/48879?GT1=38002


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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Gunslinger wrote:
Evangelicals won't disappear in an Obama administration. They'll just be a different crew


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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:31 am 
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Very good post,Gunslinger. Imagine having a President who makes decisions based on what is good for the country as a whole rather than what will make the rich even richer.
Obama's presidency will mark the first time in American political history that the voices of progressive evangelicals—those driven more by the greater social good than by personal moralizing—will be privileged inside of the White House.

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:38 am 
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sparks wrote:
Very good post,Gunslinger. Imagine having a President who makes decisions based on what is good for the country as a whole rather than what will make the rich even richer.
Obama's presidency will mark the first time in American political history that the voices of progressive evangelicals—those driven more by the greater social good than by personal moralizing—will be privileged inside of the White House.


Memo to skraps:

Barack bin Obama has only visited the White House and isn't even President yet.
You have no clue who will be in there but considering Obasama's prior associations I expect Farrakhan, Wright, Jackson, and Sharpton will be among those stalking the halls.

Typical.

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:02 am 
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Jesus wept.
:(



Not Exactly the Kind of "Hope" They Had in Mind
Posted by: Carol Platt Liebau at 12:09 PM
Tuesday, November 25, 2008

Writing at Slate, a Catholic, Melinda Hennenberger (who apparently voted for Obama), worries about the President-elect's strong pro-abortion views -- suddenly realizing that if he was serious about his promise to sign the Freedom of Choice Act, it might well mean either that staff at Catholic hospitals are forced to perform abortions against their will or (in her view, the more likely scenario) Catholic hospitals across the country will simply close their doors.

Well, yes. Could it be that pro-life Obama supporters are suddenly realizing that pro-lifers -- including Archbishop Charles Chaput and other prominent Catholic clergy -- weren't kidding when they called Barack Obama the most extreme pro-abortion politician ever in mainstream American politics?

She ends her piece like this:

At the very moment when Obama and his party have won the trust of so many Catholics who favor at least some limits on abortion, I hope he does not prove them wrong. I hope he does not make a fool out of that nice Doug Kmiec, who led the pro-life charge on his behalf. I hope he does not spit on the rest of us—though I don't take him for the spitting sort—on his way in the door. I hope that his appointment of Ellen Moran, formerly of EMILY's List, as his communications director is followed by the appointment of some equally good Democrats who hold pro-life views.

It's not clear what in the substance of President-elect Obama's voting record makes such hopes at all reasonable. And somehow, I doubt this was the kind of "hope" Obama supporters had in mind when they voted for him.

http://townhall.com/blog/g/4c6d4df8-4be ... d3d459d907

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:51 pm 
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They have got what they voted for.


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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:32 am 
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Tiger1 wrote:
They have got what they voted for.

We sure did. America elected a President who will make decisions about medical research based on science, not the hysterical arguments of the religious right.
The Washington Post wrote:
This is true of thousands of frozen embryos stored in fertility clinics around the country. More than 500,000 embryos created by in vitro fertilization to help couples have children are being stored. A large percentage of those embryos will never be used, because the couples have succeeded in having children, have given up or have grown too old to try. There is very little market for embryo adoption, so most of these embryos are destined to be destroyed. Circumstances have rendered the "life and death" decision on them almost as certain as it was on the embryos used before 2001 to make the stem cell lines that were approved to receive federal research funding.

By executive order, Obama could authorize the NIH to invite couples who planned to discard their frozen embryos to donate them for research. The couples would have to affirm that they no longer intended to use the embryos and had already decided to destroy them. Instead of the embryos merely being thawed and incinerated, as happens today, their cells could be used to produce lines for stem cell research. The moral parallel here is organ donation after death. In this case, the embryo's death is an unavoidable result of its creation and subsequent non-use for reproductive purposes. The production of stem cells from these embryos could easily be accomplished without federal support, and the resulting stem cells could be donated for federal research.

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:07 am 
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sparks wrote:
We sure did. America elected a President who will make decisions about medical research based on science, not the hysterical arguments of the religious right.


BWWWHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAH

And you are basing that on his track record of flips and flops....?

Or the promises he has already broken....?

Or when he finds out that ASCR is far better than using embryos he won't be signing any "executive order" for funding of ESCR.....will that disappoint you?


:smt005 :smt006

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:46 am 
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President Obama received an ethusiastic reception at Notre Dame on Sunday.
Quote:
Obama entered the graduation ceremony to thunderous applause and a standing ovation from many in the crowd of 12,000. But as the president began his commencement address, at least three protesters interrupted his speech. One yelled, "Stop killing our children."

The president ceded no ground on the abortion issue, but asked those on both sides of the debate to "work together to reduce the number of women seeking abortions by reducing unintended pregnancies, and making adoption more available, and providing care and support for women who do carry their child to term."

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 6:51 am 
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Way too funny..!!!!!!!

:smt005 :smt006

Pro-death President gets interrupted by protesters.


Protesters Interrupt Obama Graduation Speech


Pro-life demonstrators interrupt President Obama's commencement address


http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/nation ... .htmlstory

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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 9:01 am 
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As for Obama saying the Pro-Lifers should not be demonizing his side, well, quit murdering babies and you will quit being demonized. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: A Catholic brief for Obama
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 11:35 am 
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Tiger1 wrote:
As for Obama saying the Pro-Lifers should not be demonizing his side, well, quit murdering babies and you will quit being demonized. :twisted:


I have read this thread because it started before I got here and has now resurfaced. For those who say that abortion is not murder, based on the incorrect definition of the original Hebrew word, here is the correct definition:

Strong's #7523 ratsach-it is a primitive root: which basically means to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder: -put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

To dash in pieces, have you ever seen a fetus after an abortion? How very sad.

Life begins at conception. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ was conceived at the time we celebrate Christmas. He was actually born at the end of September. I can prove that Biblically.

For any Catholic or Christian to attempt to find common ground with this man only means that they will answer to God for it. And, my educated opinion is that will happen sooner than any of them even know.

There are other words throughout the God's Word that discuss other forms of the word "kill".

To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. -Ecclesiastes 3:1-8


True followers consult Him in regards to the time for everything, not follow some half-cocked idiot who thinks he knows what is better.

People who don't know His Word should never try to assume they do.


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